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Charlie4
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 03:47:38 pm »

In terms of hoarding, if you could call it that, I'd say the guy who saved up for that one Gibby in the 60's would appreciate his guitar more than the modern player who owns 10 or so guitars,
because it's a lot easier to do so.  Technology has done a lot for music, in terms of new genres as well as education.  A lot more players that are very good, but maybe lacking creativity -
if YouTube copycats are anything to go by.

If you use the tools correctly you can benefit greatly but if you become lazy by relying on technology, such as I did with Guitar Pro few years back, you will lack fundamental skills needed for making music. #1 being not having a good ear. 
In the olden days there was no transcription software etc. merely the patience to improve your craft.

Better off when used correctly and vice versa. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 07:07:16 pm »

We are truly blessed to live in an age where guitars are plentiful, generally good quality and relatively inexpensive, but has that turned us all into guitar gadflies?
First thing, who is 'we'? At the time, the world was smaller but the amoint of guitar players a whole lot smaller. A much larger percentage would have been pro musicians, which makes a lot of difference in terms of avarage playing ability.
Take myself as an example. In the sixties, I would have been able to afford the purchase of a good quality guitar and amp and like today, I would not have had a lot of time to play it. In the past, a guy like me would not have bought the guitar for not spending so much on something you use so little. Now I can have the pleasure of having good tone for an amount that is in line with the fun.
I think there's a lot of guys and gals like me and I also tend to think that the only reason why gear has becone better as well as more affordable is because of all these amateurs buying gear.

Quote
But do we spend the time getting to know any of our instruments in a way that would make us much better players? Do we bond the same with them?
Pro's? Yes I think so.

Quote
More importantly, do we learn that we have to listen to our playing and tonality? The staggering number of YouTube gear “demonstrators” who seem to blissfully unaware that the room they are playing in sounds like a tin can, their mic is distorting or the simple fact that they are not even in tune begs to differ.
Agreed we don't all listen properly, but some of us actually record ourselves for listening critically rather than putting online indiscriminately.
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 09:20:30 am »

No, we're not spoiled... we were deprived back then.
Cheesy Deprived... yes, you can look at it that way. But aren't you the better for it? Adversity breeding character and all that?
+3 to deprived.

Aside from being a myth, character building doesn't help avoid bad playing habits when you start out on a near unplayable piece-o-junk - and don't know enough to realize as much (lol).  Could've shaved 2 years off my development time if I had (a) a semi decent guitar and (b) a few pointers, such as Youtube could provide today.  (The guitar teaching in town was atrociously focused on Mary Had A Little Lamb - in case anyone was going to suggest that.)

Also, it's so inspirational to have a few beauties hanging on the wall.  Just having them within eyeshot inspires more playing.

I'm really very thankful for the guitar age we live in, just honestly wish it came around sooner - so much wasted time.
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2012, 09:38:52 am »

Nice Post. Spot On.

When I was 15, I had to work a Month as a parking attendant in the dust over school holidays to scrape together the money to buy my Gibson SG ( that was on clearance sale ). 11 years later and I will never sell this guitar. I have alot of sentimental value attached to this guitar. Embarrassed

On the flip side , I have purchased a Telecaster 3 months ago. I am selling it now to try something else. I love being able to own different types guitars and really Enjoy different types of guitars.
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2012, 10:24:43 am »

Since we're necroposting...

It really is astonishing how good gear can be for so little money today.  Buy a PRS SE, change the pickups.  Pair it with a Laney Cub12 (with the speaker swapped out) and you can have fantastic, top of the line guitar tone with an extremely well made, attractive, and playable instrument.

But this seldom happens.  Beginners need to go through down their paths.  Internet means massive resources but also massive noise.  Every approach to guitar playing is promoted.  How is a beginner meant to work out what's really the right way to go?  You spend 15 months learning to play as fast as possible only to find you're boring everyone.  You go from multi-fx amp to multi-fx amp and somehow it never sounds like much. 

You get that guitar that's associated with the famous brand everyone talks about only to realise it was rubbish three years later.  You then buy the famous brand guitar for a chunk of money and now you have a good enough instrument to really start learning, unaware that your first guitar could have been that playable.  Finally you fork out for the tube amplifier that everyone's talking about but you still don't sound like Jimmy Page because it's so loud you have to use a distortion pedal to make it go.

We've seen this on the forum over and over.  Few actually just flat-out take the advice of the old hands.  And some of us old hands are out of touch and we recommend the famous brands because, back in the day, they were the only instruments that provided top quality.  Or we've forgotten what it is to have so little cash and we're like, "Nah, that workhorse delay is rubbish, you need this boutique delay."

It's more than possible for a beginner's rig to be good enough that Jeff Beck would miss little playing on it.  But it's damn hard to know that when you're starting out.
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Alan Ratcliffe
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2012, 10:52:40 am »

Good post Singe! Thanked.
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chris77
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2012, 12:24:24 pm »


It's more than possible for a beginner's rig to be good enough that Jeff Beck would miss little playing on it.  But it's damn hard to know that when you're starting out.

I agree that good tone needn't cost an arm and a leg and that if you know what to look for it is most certainly possible to get the good stuff for way less than what you will probably waste on "beginner" gear and gadgets you will outgrow eventually. There really is no reason when you're starting out for not getting a decent, well built and toneful guitar with an easy action.
But I will still recommend a modeling amp to a beginner over any other amplifier out there. I reckon the reason most new players quit is because it is so damn difficult to sound anything other than crap when you start out. With a modeling amp you can at least find some tones you like easily enough, even if your playing isn't yet up to scratch. And the better you sound to yourself, the more you will enjoy playing, and the more you enjoy it the better player you will become. Once you've reached a certain level of proficiency you will have figured out from your modeling amp which types of tones you like and what it takes to make up those tones. You will now know that for Tone X you need a good clean amp sound, some chorus and a touch of reverb while for Tone Z you need more gain from the amp, some overdrive and just a dash of delay. You can now look for a tube amp that meets your requirements and will be able to choose which effects you need better than you would have otherwise. Yes, a seasoned player can tell you those things without it costing you a cent, but figuring it out for yourself is just so much more rewarding in the long run. You will understand the "how", and that can only be a good thing.
With most modeling amps there is also the bonus of an onboard tuner, headphone output for silent practicing and some kind of mp3 input for play-along jams to your favourite songs - all things that I reckon is more important than pro quality tone to a beginner.
So yes, you can have great quality gear right from the start - but I think the best gear in the world will be useless to even the most naturally talented individual in the world if he/she is just starting out and doesn't yet know how to use it to get the tones they are after.
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2012, 12:32:44 pm »

I'm going to knock up my recommendations for beginners.  One thing I'll say.  Buy the cheap, awesome little tube amp.  Then buy an out of date multi-fx for R350.  You'll get all that stuff you're talking about.  It may even sound better than the modelling amp because it's benefiting from all the tubey goodness.

Digital multi-fx value tends towards R0.00 over a few years (plus parts and scrap metal value for the classier units).  Buy it when it's worth only a little bit more to experience effects.  A boss GT6 has great delays, tremolos, compression, etc. etc..  Rely on the amp to provide an amplifier sound.  You'll never have any reason to sell that amp.  Even when you decide you need a MB triple-rectifier, your first little 1x12 valve combo is going to be super-useful in any number of situations - including playing in your retirement home Cheesy  At that point those modelling amps have long since been torn apart in third-world e-waste heaps.
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« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 12:58:21 pm »

Well Singe, if you put it like that...... Win win scenario there for sure. In fact, I think you gave me a new answer to those What should I get when I start out questions that always seem to crop up. Cool
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« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 01:07:00 pm »

Might be a bit more to this though, Singe and Chris

You are most probably both right. MultiFX units do scare a lot of people as well, so a Modeling Amp would suit a those who hate operating units with a tiny display. But Singe is probably right in the long run.

I am an Electric Guitar noob and I bought a modeling amp, mostly for ease of use, just plug in and turn on effect... but I am not getting the sound I want at all, but on the other hand it is a great place to start.



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singemonkey
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 01:22:31 pm »

That's why there are units like this:

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=534

Also totally out of date but more than acceptable.

The recommendations I'm talking about are not about what beginners find most appealing - that's part of the problem in retrospect.  It's about what they'd benefit from if they're prepared to really embrace all the experience and knowledge that's now available independently on the internet rather than stuff marketed to their lack of knowledge.

So I'm gong to straight out say: "buy a soldering iron and learn to change pickups yourself."  Because the sooner you get over it (with the help of all the youtube help and forum step-by-step guides), the sooner you're going to free yourself from the shackles of crappy gear and needless expense.  A lot of members here have reported initially taking the guitar to the store to get strings changed.  We may laugh, but it's all the same thing in fact.

So there should be advice for the n00b who thinks, "These folks have been around, I'm going to trust them."  A path that leaves you without that, "I wish I'd done this years ago," feeling. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2012, 01:42:19 pm »

I don't think it's a good idea to recommend ME units + small tube amp as a general rule Singed.  Case in point: I could never get the distortion tones I REALLY wanted out of my Night Train tube amp because delay/reverb effects in front of an amp with pre-amp drive sounds really horribly awful.  I didn't realise that until too late, so no swirly Gilmour tones for me, at least back then.

Now, understanding things like effects loops and how to stack my stomps, I could choose an amp that really gives me what I want.
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2012, 02:01:15 pm »

So you'd get 'em from a modelling amp?  I think not.  Ultimately you will get a better organic drive sound from the tube amp than you can get from any pedal.  The multi-fx is a cheap way of doing the same thing you'd do with a modelling amp but without wasting money on a modelling amp and learning how good a tube amp can sound at the same time.  In other words, it's for getting a sense of what these effects do.  For playing around.  Once you know what you're doing, you can add stomps or a top notch multi-fx (if that's your style), but you underlying amp sound will not become obsolete.

Heck, if you're a metal player, you'll want a stomp sooner rather than later.  But the amp loudspeaker will also play a role there so that you'll sound way better than your beginner buddies (tone wise, not necessarily playing wise) with their modelling amps.
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 02:23:50 pm »


The recommendations I'm talking about are not about what beginners find most appealing - that's part of the problem in retrospect.  It's about what they'd benefit from if they're prepared to really embrace all the experience and knowledge that's now available independently on the internet rather than stuff marketed to their lack of knowledge.

So I'm gong to straight out say: "buy a soldering iron and learn to change pickups yourself."  Because the sooner you get over it (with the help of all the youtube help and forum step-by-step guides), the sooner you're going to free yourself from the shackles of crappy gear and needless expense.  A lot of members here have reported initially taking the guitar to the store to get strings changed.  We may laugh, but it's all the same thing in fact.

So there should be advice for the n00b who thinks, "These folks have been around, I'm going to trust them."  A path that leaves you without that, "I wish I'd done this years ago," feeling. Wink

Good stuff Singe. I have fallen into that category , appealing rather than beneficial. Real words of Wisdom.
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 02:54:41 pm »

So you'd get 'em from a modelling amp?  I think not.  Ultimately you will get a better organic drive sound from the tube amp than you can get from any pedal.  The multi-fx is a cheap way of doing the same thing you'd do with a modelling amp but without wasting money on a modelling amp and learning how good a tube amp can sound at the same time.  In other words, it's for getting a sense of what these effects do.  For playing around.  Once you know what you're doing, you can add stomps or a top notch multi-fx (if that's your style), but you underlying amp sound will not become obsolete.

Heck, if you're a metal player, you'll want a stomp sooner rather than later.  But the amp loudspeaker will also play a role there so that you'll sound way better than your beginner buddies (tone wise, not necessarily playing wise) with their modelling amps.

I DID get the tone I wanted from my first modelling amp.  I upgraded the amp because, y'know, everyone said tube amps are the way to go when you get big...

Point still stands: certain effects, particularly reverb, delay, chorus in front of an over-driven tube amp just doesn't work.  You need those effects running after the pre-amp (in an effects loop) or else you need to avoid pre-amp drive at all, which seems a bit silly after shelling out money on an amp with tube pre-amps.

Most of the MFX amps that I've used (Roland, Vox) automatically incorporated their delays and whatnot after the drive circuits, so you could add lots of delay to a heavily distorted tone (for example) and not completely stuff it up.  You can't do that in front of any old tube amp.
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