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Author Topic: Are we spoiled?  (Read 29274 times)
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ez
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 03:11:36 pm »

So you'd get 'em from a modelling amp?  I think not.  Ultimately you will get a better organic drive sound from the tube amp than you can get from any pedal.  The multi-fx is a cheap way of doing the same thing you'd do with a modelling amp but without wasting money on a modelling amp and learning how good a tube amp can sound at the same time.  In other words, it's for getting a sense of what these effects do.  For playing around.  Once you know what you're doing, you can add stomps or a top notch multi-fx (if that's your style), but you underlying amp sound will not become obsolete.

Heck, if you're a metal player, you'll want a stomp sooner rather than later.  But the amp loudspeaker will also play a role there so that you'll sound way better than your beginner buddies (tone wise, not necessarily playing wise) with their modelling amps.

I DID get the tone I wanted from my first modelling amp.  I upgraded the amp because, y'know, everyone said tube amps are the way to go when you get big...

Point still stands: certain effects, particularly reverb, delay, chorus in front of an over-driven tube amp just doesn't work.  You need those effects running after the pre-amp (in an effects loop) or else you need to avoid pre-amp drive at all, which seems a bit silly after shelling out money on an amp with tube pre-amps.

Most of the MFX amps that I've used (Roland, Vox) automatically incorporated their delays and whatnot after the drive circuits, so you could add lots of delay to a heavily distorted tone (for example) and not completely stuff it up.  You can't do that in front of any old tube amp.


The bit about preamp drive in tube amps is wrong. Think Deluxe Reverb, Super, Bassman, Twin, Tweed Deluxe, none have preamp drive.


I think the point is that beginners should try to avoid the delays and reverbs and chorus and warbles and things for a while until they understand some theory, know how to make the guitar go louder and softer without having to resort to turning any knobs (most people need to turn knobs or step on something for this), play in time, play in key, know what a key is, know some scales, know how to tune a guitar, learn to bend, learn to strum, learn to pick, learn to hold a pick, learn vibrato, learn bent vibrato (this is hard) and the other 1000 things you should know a bit about before you'll sound decent.


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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 03:18:46 pm »



The bit about preamp drive in tube amps is wrong. Think Deluxe Reverb, Super, Bassman, Twin, Tweed Deluxe, none have preamp drive.


I think the point is that beginners should try to avoid the delays and reverbs and chorus and warbles and things for a while until they understand some theory, know how to make the guitar go louder and softer without having to resort to turning any knobs (most people need to turn knobs or step on something for this), play in time, play in key, know what a key is, know some scales, know how to tune a guitar, learn to bend, learn to strum, learn to pick, learn to hold a pick, learn vibrato, learn bent vibrato (this is hard) and the other 1000 things you should know a bit about before you'll sound decent.




I mentioned pre-amp drive, but the same applies for power-amp drive as well.  In my case, I couldn't get power-amp drive at non-insane volumes so...let's put it this way then: AMP drive, pre/post whatever, is not compatible with stuff like delay (or that category of effects) in front of the amp.  So the suggestion of an MFX unit in front of a decent, small tube amp can work, with the caution that you understand effects loops and whether you want one.

I have disagreed with Singe on this before, and I'm disagreeing with you as well here: I don't deny that the point you're making has some validity, but that's how I started out: no effects, no nothing, just guitar and amp.  And whilst I did my work getting down all the basics of fingering, picking etc. I couldn't get the tones that I wanted to get, and my playing suffered as a result because I couldn't play what I wanted to play.

Sounding decent is a combination of all the basics you've mentioned PLUS an understanding of how to apply and control effects, the ones that relevant to you as a player.  The sooner you understand how those effects colour your basic sound, the better, and the better equipped you'll be to make a decision about your next gear upgrades (which is what the thread is all about, really).
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 03:33:41 pm »

I don't believe knowing how effects work will make you a better player. Knowing how they work and where they sound good can be useful, but useless if you can't play well enough i.e. using delays is quite hard if you still struggle with playing in time. Maybe the delay can help you get better at it, if you can concentrate on it long enough before switching it off and seeing what the flanger does (or whatever). As you say, those things colour the sound, you can play Pink Floyd without all the stuff, it won't sound the same, but it shouldn't sound bad. If it does, you prob need to practise some more.
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2012, 07:16:11 am »

I bought a modeling amp, mostly for ease of use, just plug in and turn on effect... but I am not getting the sound I want at all, but on the other hand it is a great place to start.


What sound do you want?
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« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2012, 08:42:05 am »

I am an Electric Guitar noob and I bought a modeling amp, mostly for ease of use, just plug in and turn on effect... but I am not getting the sound I want at all, but on the other hand it is a great place to start.
Well the guys who are famous and play Marshalls or twins or whatever also had to tune things to find the sound they're wanting (and some of them can't get all they want from one amp anyway).

Modelling amps just give you several starting points that you can use as a basis for further tweaking - just as [fill in the name of whoever you're thinking with] had to figure out how to set the treble, how to set the gain, how to set the master volume, where to set each knob on each effect and so on.

So give yourself some time. Rome was not built in a day.
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2017, 03:33:28 pm »



Forgive me for reviving the EXTREMELY old thread. I just came across it...

Yes. We are spoiled. And yes I also think the "oldies" were deprived. But the last bit of discussion here (about amps and effects etc.) proves what OP tried to say, in that there's a lot of gear readily available now. However the question as to it's influence on beginners being good or bad, I think it could be either. If a guy is like me (now), and tries to do some sort of research from folks who has the experience, then he could easily find an excellent bargain on good gear on the cheap. However, if they are just starting out, they would probably listen to the salesman at (enter whatever guitar shop name here) (like me then) and buy the package for R2000, and then another effects pedal for another R2000+, etc.

I started with a package deal (had my Aria, a good 15w starter amp, a cable + strap), since that was what I could afford, and our dial-up modem couldn't point me in the right direction (the 'tube and the like didn't exist back then). The amp was stolen after a couple of years, and since I used to store my cables etc. in the back of the amp (I still don't know if it's a good idea, but I have too much stuff to do it now), everything else except the axe was taken. However, in those years I would literally play with my settings on my amp and guitar and found a tone I loved. I used it for everything. Mostly open chords, but then I learned bar chords (thanks to the guy who played with me at church) and eventually power chords. The tone and settings on the amp stayed the same.

So, when the amp was stolen, the insurance paid out a fair amount and I bought the ZOOM I now have (because another friend I made who played in a band had one and I could always plug into a PA system). That's when I learned about effects. A whole new world opened up. And at the right time at that. The teacher always arrives when the student is ready. However, almost a good 12 years later, and I want a basic rig. 1 amp. 1 axe (I'll probably upgrade my Aria systematically over the next few years), and a small pedal board.

Long story to say it's taken me years to realise that: 1. Tone is in the fingers, 2. The most important thing to be an awesome musician, is your ears. 3. the second most important thing to be an awesome musician, is you using your ears. Listen to your guitar heroes (or bass, or drums, even harmonica) and then to yourself. What sounds crap to you, may sound awesome to someone else. And though having access to so much now, those who honestly take the time to become intimate (you know what I mean...) with their gear, will become better and possibly stand out in a vast ocean of guys who can play a few chords...

I would like to find out from the guys who posted if they're opinions are still the same regarding gear, purely out of curiosity.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2017, 05:00:16 pm »

My lessons taught and applied. Tech spoilt me but also created confusion and frustration until a friend who is an absolutely amazing guitarist. shared these rules....

Trust your ears and listen. If you can hum it, you can play it.

As to tone... If you have access to an amp, tube or SS, find the tone YOU like (Preferably without any sound modification i.e stomps and multi effects) on the clean channel and listen to your guitar PUP selection sounds 

Tone taste is as individual as fingerprints and chromosome variations. Pedals are there to enhance your tone subtly and less is more.

Trust your fingers and your ears, if you are in a band listen to your mix and adjust accordingly. Volume is not adjustment, tone is. Find that sweet spot where you can cut through the mix

When playing through a PA use amp sims from your multiFX. When going into an amp, all amp sims off as the amp is designed to function within a certain response range.

Think basic, practice to develop muscle memory and play to your best ability.

Jamming is the best judge of your skill

Yes we are spoiled and frustrated by GAS and the search for THAT tone that defines each of us as a musician. So is life. Keep it simple and you have less to fret about. Add more variables and the challenges multiply exponentially.

My two plucks worth...



 
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2017, 10:59:11 pm »

Thanks Stoffeltoo. Good advice imho. I share the sentiment on most of what you mentioned.
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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2017, 09:06:07 am »

My lessons taught and applied. Tech spoilt me but also created confusion and frustration until a friend who is an absolutely amazing guitarist. shared these rules....

Trust your ears and listen. If you can hum it, you can play it.

As to tone... If you have access to an amp, tube or SS, find the tone YOU like (Preferably without any sound modification i.e stomps and multi effects) on the clean channel and listen to your guitar PUP selection sounds 

Tone taste is as individual as fingerprints and chromosome variations. Pedals are there to enhance your tone subtly and less is more.

Trust your fingers and your ears, if you are in a band listen to your mix and adjust accordingly. Volume is not adjustment, tone is. Find that sweet spot where you can cut through the mix

When playing through a PA use amp sims from your multiFX. When going into an amp, all amp sims off as the amp is designed to function within a certain response range.

Think basic, practice to develop muscle memory and play to your best ability.

Jamming is the best judge of your skill

Yes we are spoiled and frustrated by GAS and the search for THAT tone that defines each of us as a musician. So is life. Keep it simple and you have less to fret about. Add more variables and the challenges multiply exponentially.

My two plucks worth...

I love this! Thanks Stoffel!!
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